Episode 4 - Celebrating 25 Years of The Spice Girls
Welcome to high, low brow. The show with highbrow takes on lowbrow culture. I'm here. Hi, your other posts, DanitaSteinberg. So we just got word that the judge in the Brittany Spears. Hearing, um, has allowed her to hire her own lawyer. It's about time. And I think after everything we heard and her testimony think the, you know, the world finally knows the truth.
And I think the tides have turned a little bit and things are looking up. So we, we hope for the best for Brittany. We love Brittany so much and, you know, shout out to the entire free Brittany movement for really getting her voice out there. Because I think if not for the internet, we're keeping an eye on that.
And, um, we're also keeping an eye on Erica Jane and Tom Gerardi. The saga continues.
Okay. When I was growing up, my soap opera did your, was days of our lives, this like balloon story. I mean, now I guess Tom apparently has Alzheimer's and now he's under a conservatorship himself and. Now his victims, Erica Jane is probably going to have to pay them. Meanwhile, she's, you know, the current season of Beverly Hills is airing.
It's been interesting watching it unfold in real time, and I'm just interested to see how it plays out, because right now she's sort of like the victim and all of that. Because we didn't know all that we know now. So I'm interested to see how the reunion goes, which has, which has not been filmed yet. I'm curious to see if she even shows up.
I mean, I don't know how she shows her face at this point, but, but we'll see. It's. Coined to be wild. I mean, whew, where are we? Where do we even begin? Because I mean, Erica Jane, she, she had such, such high highs and such low lows. So brutal and, uh, I I'm really interested to see how all of this shakes out. I also read recently that she's being accused the right word to use, but she is being.
Alleged that she is the breakup for scooter Braun's marriage as well. And it's like, man, this is, this has been a year for a chain. Yeah. Emmy nominees got announced recently. What did you think? I gotta be honest with you. I am so, so happy to read that MJ Rodriguez of pose was nominated. Honestly, I feel like the Emmy's have slept on pose so long, but also just that like the three main.
Actresses in the series have been super slept on. And not only just that MJ Rodriguez as a trans woman to be nominated for an Emmy is huge. Yeah. Very, very exciting. I am so happy to see Penn 15 on the list. Oh my God. I love Penn 15. It's my favorite show of the past while I just think it's so, so funny.
So smart. So painfully accurate. I feel like when I watch it, I'll process it. And then for like three weeks, After watching it, it like triggers these flashbacks that I had just, I haven't thought about in so long. So I feel like I've been through a lot while watching that show. Yeah. It's it's so it's so good.
And I've been watching the fear street series on that. Oh, how is it? It's okay. It's it's entertaining. I wouldn't, I don't know that I would like recommend it to people, but it's entertaining for what it is. But there was the first episode was like set in 1994, which is, you know, several years earlier than Penn 15, but I couldn't help comparing them because I I've been finding like so many.
Anachronisms in fierce street and I, I don't think there's any in 15, you know, so that alone makes it worthy of an Emmy. And, you know, it's, it's a show made by women and that's great too. So that AOL episode, every, every single time I'm like, I feel deeply seen. Uh, w how, like, I'm sorry, but like who allowed you to write an episode about my childhood weird?
It was in, I was in so many inappropriate chat rooms. Thong episode stands out because there was just always. One girl who had a thong. Yes.
Or even like when, when Anna and Maya, I think Anna is staying at Maya's house and Maya gets released. Upset and like, they're so excited at the beginning of the weekend, but then by the end, Maya is like, literally go home. And, you know, it was very like, felt like her parents liked Anna more. And actually I went to my dad's this past weekend for the first time in like a year.
And my friend Mike, my childhood friend, Danielle came. And the whole time I was like, man, right. Dad likes Danielle more than me. So those feelings continue. And of course I was thinking of the pen 15. Episode anyway, just so, so, so happy for Penn 15. That's just huge. And I think promising in, in terms of getting more seasons and getting more eyes on it.
So the people who do know about it are like, this is the best fucking show, but there is like so many people do not know about it. It's like a slept on show. Everybody needs to watch it. Yeah. I think it will be like a freaks and geeks or like my so-called life scenario where it's like, I mean, thankfully it's not like a one season show, but, um, I think, I think it'll sort of gain slowly gain this like cult following and be cemented as cannon a hundred percent Canon.
I cannot believe that love craft country, not 18 nominations. But has been canceled. I feel conflicted about, about Lovecraft country and I am a white woman, so I can't fully speak to it, but from everything that I've read, not everything, but from a lot of what I've read from black critics is that it's actually.
Anti-black show. And there were a lot of colorism issues brought up with the casting and there's, I just watched this really interesting Instagram video from Amber J. Phillips from kind of when it was airing. And she sort of talks about how, um, I guess on Tik TOK. Lighter skinned black woman was cast as kind of a small role.
And she was playing the younger version of a darker skinned woman in the show and in hair and makeup, they started like making her darker and darker and darker. And Amber J. Phillips was just sort of like, why didn't they hire a dark skin, black woman to begin with if that's what they wanted. But of course there is.
Colorism and more racism directed towards darker skinned women. You know, she was just saying how, like the show is kind of, you know, it's supposed to be this radical show, but it's not really, if you look, if you kind of look at it more closely and you know, it sort of plays into the magical Negro tropes and.
Um, there's a really good New York times article by my Phillips about sort of exploiting black trauma for narratives. Um, we can link to it, but so it, it seems like it was right fully canceled. Although those are not the reasons it was canceled, but it does seem like one of those Emmy shows where they just like want to like check it off their list, you know, and be like, see, we're not racist.
Um, when in fact they're like nominating a show that isn't as progressive. Appears to be maybe on the surface. So, you know, and, and I was looking at the Amies list and I, I know those are shows that people, like, I know people were in the last, so I've never, I've never seen it, but I've seen so many people talk about it.
And I was like, I mean, it, it doesn't, it doesn't look good. Maybe I'm wrong. I watched five minutes and like, please don't cancel me for this, but I watched five minutes and turned it off, turned it off. I just cannot with Jason. Sudeikis no one less interesting to me. I trust your opinion over most of these other people.
So like, You're not canceled in my eyes. So, I mean, yes, we'll definitely celebrating pose and pimp pen 15, and I may destroy, you was finally getting its due. Yeah. But like ultimately this list of the list of nominees are, I don't know, not who you want to be in company with, you know, like it's just the most vanilla stuff.
Other than that. Outsiders. I will be honest. That is true because I kind of looked at the list and was like, yay, I'm happy about these things. And then I was like, I pretend I do not see the rest of the list. I mean, I will watch them. Absolutely. But I don't put a lot of stock in them, you know? Yeah. I mean, we'll, I watch the red carpet.
Absolutely. Am I going to watch the show properly? I'm a real awards bitch. So I, I will be if there was a drag show that, that accompanied the award show. That I would probably do. Cause then it would be, it would be funnier in my opinion, but yeah, I mean, I am who I am. So speaking of we are who we are, it's just us this episode, a surprise.
Um, so you might want to turn it off. Now we are talking about the spice girls, because want to be hit 25 years, uh, last week I think. And then. I think was so formative for everybody our age, and I attribute the spice girls too much of my identity. So I think that's a good segue. The spice girls definitely formed a lot of who I am.
And I still remember the first time I heard, want to be, I was at home and much music was on and it came on TV and it was just like, holy shit. What is this? This is amazing. So yeah, the spice girls made me want to be like cool and awesome. And I don't know. Yeah. I don't really remember when I encountered them for the first time, but I, I had older cousins and they were always watching much music, so I'm sure that's where, that's where I saw them for the first time as well, but they just dominate.
Everything you could not turn on the radio or turn on the TV or anything without, without hearing them or seeing them. They're truly like the Beatles of our time. I think they're better than the Beatles. I agree. Those songs slap way harder than fucking Hey Jude. Yes, but I, they just dominated my childhood.
Like I just have so many memories of, you know, dressing as them for Halloween. Who did you dress as? So I was not the leader of my friend group, so I could not be Jerry, which would have been my preferred. Spice girl. So I was designated to Porsche, which at the time I was sort of resentful towards, but I think it's kind of cool.
To, to be fair. Posh is like the one you want to be now. Yeah. Like I love to be aloof and kind of goth. I just remember my friends and I dancing around and singing and making up dances. And just all we did was spice girls, spice, girls, spice girls, you know, and I remember winning the spelling bee. 3:00 AM I, my grandma buying me the spice girls Barbie.
And again, again, I wanted Jerry, but she was sold out
bitch. So I had baby spice, which was okay. She was in a pink dress. My second favorite, I would say at the time. Same. Yeah, we have the same ranking. I think, although my ranking now is different. Like, I, I feel like my ranking then was Jerry, um, uh, Victoria Melby and then Mel C say. Very interesting. I mean, Millsy is the best singer.
I don't know why I didn't like Millsy, but I think it's because she was like a Tom boy, which is weird because I S I totally identify with that. Me too. Yeah. And it's like, oh, I see myself in this and I do not like it. Right, right. That's that's my take. Yeah, you could be. Right. And, and I feel like she was the least popular.
So even if you did sort of lean towards liking her, you didn't want anyone to know. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, Jerry is forever. My favorite, even though she is the worst singer of, I was so devoted, I bought, I had. Solo albums to like lift me up. And what is the Chica Lavita Chico, whatever it's called.
Truly the worst song of all time.
And then she has like the music video aliens. It's raining. Men is a bop when you're at the gay club. Yeah. Uh, when I found out it was their 25th anniversary, I posted on Instagram about it and I was like this serotonin, the spice girls has given me over these past. 25 years is unparalleled. It is unparalleled.
Nothing brings me so much like unadulterated joy than listening to the spice girls and even rewatching SpiceWorld. Very silly, but it's so ahead of its time and, you know, I feel like it just paved the way for these sort of like subversively, feminist films of the like late nineties, early two thousands, like legally blonde and Josie and the pussy cats.
And I mean, you can make an argument that like, something like who listed it before SpiceWorld Nair was definitely just like this era of like cool movies. Girls and women, but you know, the spice girls in this and spice world were a big part of it. And like so many movies about women spice spice world gets written off as superficial.
Or stupid or not worth critical analysis. And you know, all of that is of course untrue. There's just such a long history of misogyny and, and female artists. And. Movies about women and, you know, even something like crossroads, which is a movie that slaps it's really, really good actually. And that movie is written off because of Brittany Spears and her career at the time.
And it's just about sort of like. Women being taken seriously. And also too, like the step that women like being taken seriously, but you know, a band like Nirvana would never be treated like the spice girls were treated, you know, and want to be as is the highest grossing single of all time in the world by a female.
Period. And still to this day, 25 years later, that record has not been broken. Like that's truly incredible. And I feel like people still write them off back to SpiceWorld. I feel like when you watch that movie, they're charisma. Their uniqueness, nerve
it's light. And you're like, oh man, like even as an adult, I get it. Like these women were fired. Yeah. And it's like, you know, you hear about pop bands being put together all the time. Even if they're put together, that doesn't necessarily mean that there could, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have a chemistry or that they're going to be.
People are going to react to them in a specific way. And also like case in point the sugar Jones.
That's for our Canadian
I was almost this close to singing it. And then I was like, absolutely not because we do not need to put her in this,
but yeah, you were, you were saying, um, you know, it, it, it boils down to talent for sure. And I, you know, I don't know how much, like singing vocal talent they had, but who cares? Bob Dylan fucking can sing, you know, it's, it's, it's an entire package. No one complains that Leonard Cohen can't sing, you know, but the second a woman, you know, Andrea Bocelli or whoever the opera.
I forgot.
Andrea Bocelli. We've recently discovered that we were both at their reunion tour, like 10 years ago. Yeah, I think it was nine, 10 years ago. Yeah, the ACC and it was, it was one of the most unifying experiences of my life. I never got to see them at the time. I didn't live in Toronto. And I think I was, I was quite young when they were like at their height.
I was like seven, eight, and I don't even, and my dad did live in Toronto, but, um, Brittany Spears was my first concert when I was nine years old. And, but before then, before Brittany, like, I didn't, I don't think that I understood the, like, that concerts happened. Like, I don't know that I knew that that was a thing.
So I, I just never saw them in their, in their heyday, but the reunion tour. I don't know about you, but I wept the entire time. Um, and it was just all women, all, all people our age. And it was just, it was the closest thing to a religious experience that I will ever experience. Okay. So here's, here's my story.
I was supposed to go see them when I was younger and it was. When Jerry announced that she was leaving the group, I had tickets to go see them in Buffalo because they were not coming to Toronto. That was like heart shattered. So I think we ended up selling the tickets cause I was like, I don't even want to go anymore.
I was like, I don't even care anymore. Fuck them. Like, you know, and just being like, my boyfriend broke up with me or something. So that was terrible. Never saw them, uh, you know, adult me looks back at teenage fig, like what the fuck is wrong with you? You should have gone. That would have been fucking amazing show.
What, what the hell was I thinking? I'm very sad that I did not go. That was a dumb mistake, but yes, holy shit. That show was so incredible. I went with two of my best friends at the time, and we had all grown up from like 16 until in our like late twenties or however old I was when that show came to Toronto.
Yeah, I think I like cried, screamed at every single like song we were sitting not on the floor, cause that would have been like very expensive, but like in the one hundreds section and we were like very close to the floor and we were just like, There was just like energy dancing everywhere. I like it was, yeah, it was like church.
It was like going to church. It was. Yeah. It was like a religious experience. And I am not a religious person. No me either neither, but it truly was. It truly was. I felt God in the ACC that night.
Yeah. Like all five of them were together and there was sort of all this talk about like, would Jerry be there with posh, be there? Who knows? And they were all there. And I don't know that we'll ever get that again. So, so apparently they have been talking about this. They have, but I don't think posh will ever agree unless, unless she's come out and said maybe, but from what I understand, she is just like a, flat-out never doing it again.
I think there was also talks. I just remembered this. So I apologize that we did not talk about it while we were talking about spice world, but there's talks that they're thinking about doing a sequel, like a follow-up to the moon. I don't want it. I do not want it. I think I cannot imagine a world where that is good.
I think it will taint and tarnish the legacy of the original and, you know, it's similar to something like Hocus Pocus to that is in no way going to be good. And that's coming from the biggest bet Midler fan of all time. And I, I just don't want it. I just, I appreciate the soldier, but I liked nostalgia from the past.
Like I don't need to relive it. I don't need more of that thing. I don't want the, I don't want SpiceWorld too. I really here's. The thing sometimes sequels can be good, but 95% of the time, they're truly terrible. I really don't imagine this to be good way. It could be good. You know, I think of the recent show with busy Phillips and Sarah Barelas and Paula Pell and all those women girls five Abba, which I was not a fan of, but I'm not really fan of anything that Tina Fey gets her dirty paws on.
But something like that, where it is sort of this commentary about what happens to pop stars. After their pop stars and you know, them trying to make a comeback and like something like Elisa, QDROs the comeback. Although the spice girls would not be as like sad and desperate as Valerie, whatever her last name is.
But I, you know, I, it's not that I don't see a way that it could be good and funny and interesting and nuanced and whatever, but I just don't have faith in anybody. Really that's going to make it to make it well. So in the right hands? Yes, absolutely. But it will never make it into the right hands. I mean, I would trust it maybe in the hands of women only making it, but yeah, I just, I just hope it doesn't happen.
And, you know, I wonder if they'll do a tour again, you know, I, I don't know that I would go if it wasn't all five of them, would you go. Just be actually, you know, okay. This kind of reminds me, do you know how they were doing all these like boy bands and like nineties R and B bands, these tours the last few years?
Well, obviously not the last year or so, because I never really wanted to go to those though. I wasn't interested in seeing Genuwine. Like, does he have any other hits besides pony pony?
I mean, I like, I'm just, I'm asking that out of genuine curiosity, like I just do not know like spice girls I was invested in, but like those other tourism, like, eh, I don't really care. Yeah. I don't, I don't know that I would go see the spice girls. Um, I feel like it would, I just want to like, hold onto the memory of that one reunion tour.
And I don't know that anything would live up to that, but maybe I'd be wrong. I don't know. I would probably go, I would probably have such FOMO that I would just have to, I'd be like, you know what? I'm going. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, the spice girls are art, queer culture. I think you're right. I think you're right.
What, what do you want to expand on that from experience? I would say that like, Jerry Hollowell is, was my awakening. I, I was like, huh, I see. Like, I thought that I liked women. But this hits different, right? I don't think that I'm alone. No, I don't think so either. I don't think so either. I think, I think that could probably.
Be sad for a lot of queer women. I think Jerry like transcends gender. Like I think, I think there are certain people that even if you are not attracted to that sex, you are attracted to them. Like someone like Robert Redford, like if you are not attracted to Robert Redford that you don't have a pulse.
And I I'm currently, I'm currently doing a Jane Fonda podcast. So we talk about Robert. A lot. And, um, I am interested in very few men and he, I love him. I just love him. How can you not? Um, but I think he can get it. He can absolutely get it anytime he wants. And I think Jerry Halliwell like falls into that category.
Like she is just. Undeniably hot. I would let her step on my neck for sure. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. But you, but it was it wasn't on awakening. I think if I'm not mistaken. I had a poster of her. So I had this bed, it was like a day bed almost if I remember correctly. And then I, so my day bed, it was at the end of the day bed. So I slept one side and then I looked up at Jared. Like this am I doesn't this sound like an episode of Penn 15, not to make a call back.
It's funny because I think about like my own journey with, with queerness. And I remember all of my friends while they were into the spice girls, they were as equally into the Backstreet boys and. To a lesser degree and sing and 98 degrees in all of those boy bands. And I, I just, I was not, you know, I wasn't at all.
And I mean, so, you know, their songs tearing up my heart. Amazing song. Crazy. I want it that way. Great. They had great songs that I still listen to to this day. Total bangers. Yeah. Total bangers. But overall they did not define my childhood in, in the same way that the spice girls did. And I remember just so specifically, and I think if you ask them.
A lot of people our age, like I think there would be equal weight, especially like straight people, our age straight women. But yeah, I just, I remember just so specifically watching. Whatever much music countdown or whatever, with a few of my friends. And they were all talking about like, which Backstreet boy, they had a crush on.
And I just picked, I don't even know who I picked because it wasn't true.
I think I picked like Brian. So unthreatening, he was the most feminine, maybe Nick Carter was, I don't know. I was like, I hate Nick Carter. Um, but, but yeah, so that like, so that's interesting to me that like my, my real, my only like real association with, with the Backstreet boys and boy bands in general was like all of my friends talking about like their crushes.
I didn't even, I just thought they picked one at random, you know, like I did not understand that there was like real, like S like early stages of like sexual feelings towards these men. I was like, I didn't even, I just thought they would pick one at random, you know, because that's what I was doing. Yeah.
So I don't know that the spice girls were like an awakening per se, but I was just. You don't fit just so much more drawn to them. And I just thought they were so much more interesting and like, to be honest, better, and, you know, just sort of like they, even as, even as, you know, eight, nine, ten-year-old kind of aligned with.
What I felt like was cool and, you know, and friendship and girl power. And, but I, I remember sort of like looking at the spice girls as sort of like role models in terms of like how much friendship meant to them. And they were just like, friendship never ends and all of this stuff, then, you know, I remember almost like being jealous of that even as.
Kid, you know, and I was like, but I don't think friendship operates like that in the real world. And now, well, that's a whole other, that's a whole other conversation, but yeah, those are the things that I think about when I, when I think about how I felt back then and, and figuring out myself. Yeah. And I think for me, it was sort of.
I guess they seemed comfortable with who they were and it was nice to see people who were confident with their. Bodies and their sexuality. And even if they weren't queer themselves, they just, you just felt something with them. And I think like, go back to Jerry, Hollowell always goes back to cherry hill always goes back.
So Jerry, but like she is a gay icon. I am setting it here. I add like, you know, the gays love her. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's rumors that her and Melby slept together at the time and, um, Jerry has been kind of weird about it, you know, there's, there's some interesting dichotomy is happening with yeah. Like how queer.
The spice girls are really, but also how much like queerness, I think, I think there's a lot of queerness inherently there for sure. But I also think they're almost queer bating a little bit and um, just, yeah, totally queer baiting, you know, I don't know if you remember, but like there used to be, they used to have these like postcards and there was like tons of them, like, like a hundred of them at least.
And a lot of them were very like, You know them in bed together. And sure. That's like, there is something to be sad about. Like they were a girl group. And so of course they use their sexuality to like kind of, you know, sell themselves. And women queer baiting is like hot as we talked about with like Madonna and Brittany and Christina and all of that stuff.
Um, so there's something to be said about that, but like, those photos were like pretty gay, you know, not all of them, but a lot of them. Yeah, totally. And I think it's also just about how the types of like messages that you're sending, like the way Mel C also dressed. Like, they'll see, what's pretty gay even though.
She's not right. Uh, but there was also an article that I read that said she wished she was gay. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot, there is a lot, a lot to unpack there, which, uh, you know, we don't have time for, it's interesting to think of them as queer icons. And then, you know, there's all of this sort of problematic stuff, bubbling yellow, the surface.
Yeah. Um, but again, back to Jerry Halliwell, uh, if I'm. Please. We, we touched on it before, but I think her leaving the group is really interesting because I very recently, like this is a pandemic thought, you know, there's like shower thoughts, and now there's like pandemic thoughts. Yes. And I, I was listening to their, their last album forever.
And you know, it's not as popular as spice or, or spice world. It's actually pretty good. And it's, it's kind of like a friendship breakup album. And I don't know that there are any of those ever. I think that's the only one and not all the, all of the songs are about, about friend breakups, but you know, of course, goodbye.
Just a friend breakup song. That's all it is. That's totally about Jerry. It's totally about Jerry and that's all like, I just remember, like I loved that song so much. And I think even as a, as a tween, you know, I had very strong feelings about friendship. There wasn't a lot of language for that. And there still isn't today, you know, it's still, there's so much.
About friendship that we don't discuss very much. And there's not a lot of represent representation about how integral it is to our lives and how devastating it is when there is a friend breakup and, and, you know, so I really, that song just resonated with me so much, but also what's interesting is as I was rediscovering the forever album, I was like, I got to watch the goodbye video.
Cause I remember it being a great video. Yeah. And when I watched it, it was like very hetero and it was all about like, the visuals were all about like romantic breakups. And I was like, this is a crock of shit. Yeah. This is not at all. What the song is about, you know, a white man directed it. Oh yeah.
He heard it and was like, oh yeah, this is about like to a man and a woman breaking up. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to rank ours, top five spice girls songs, but do you have any final ponderings on, on the spice girls? I genuinely wonder how much it is. To order the spice girls dolls on eBay. That is my final thought.
Okay. Wow. Well, I have to look it up. Could I have them post on our social about it when this, when the episode comes out? Cause I too would wonder, um, I don't have mine. I know a lot of people kept theirs in pristine condition. No clue where mine is. It's probably on eBay. Mine is probably on eBay not being sold.
Hi me. Yeah. Good. We could be rich right now, but instead we are here. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to rank our top five spice girls songs. So let's, instead of like me giving my five and you give me your five, let's go. I'll say, I'll say five. You say five and then we'll, we'll go to one. Okay. Okay. So. What is your number five song?
Okay. Mine is ladies of amp. Oh, iconic. I feel like that was a precursor to like me Googling pop culture references in Gilmore girls. Like before that. Trying to understand the references and lays of amp. I feel like it was an introduction to culture. Yeah. You know, they talk about Jackie O and Twiggy and I don't even know.
And there's like that like saucy reference to like JFK and Marilyn Monroe and yeah. It's it's uh, it's it's uh, I was like, oh, oh, I can't not put this on my list. I respect it. And also again, Gerry Halliwell, I would argue she has of all their songs. I think she is maybe the lead of that song because she, yeah, because it's sort of like a talkier song.
She didn't really have to like belt or anything. Um, and she always kind of had this like Marilyn Monroe. Thing going on. My number five song is goodbye. What is your number four? Okay. My number four is goodbye. My number four is stuck. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you ever have the whole dance routine memorized and everything?
Absolutely. I did. Okay. Yeah. I love that video. They all look so good in it. And it's such a like upbeat, fun kind of retro III song. It's just a pop song, you know, it's just a really good pop. It is a great pop song, so good. Okay. Number three. Okay. Never give up on the good times you are like, honestly, I feel like picking the songs that.
I really wanted to pick
like this. I feel like never give up on the good times. It was like, it has that, like, it's like a story. So like it's about the like pregnant woman. We can, we can tell them what my vibes are. It's a great song. I love that song. It's like at my guilty pleasure, maybe. Cause it's a weird song, lyrically, but it's like it slaps it slaps.
I can't deny it. My number three is Viva forever. Yup. That's a good song. Yeah. I just think it's like very beautiful. And again, I think a lot of this for me at least is tied to like how I feel about the music videos and Viva forever is like fucking CGI ferries of them. Like it's so busy. It's like, literally, like I was like, is this directed by David Lynch?
Like.
Tim Burton is how it's so fucking weird. Okay. Getting down to the top two, what is number two? Um, spice up your life. Okay. Oh my God. I think we're going to have a, I don't know that we'll over. Uh, we did overlap with goodbye, but I don't know if we're going to really overlap. Okay. Number two for me is too much.
Oh yes. Okay. Number one. Okay. Drum roll. Okay. Who do you think you are? Yes. I feel like you, yours are they're very you. Yeah. They're very, very, you. They're kind of deep cuts. I would say. They're not like the biggest hits. My number one is say, you'll be there. Yes. That is, that is a good one. Yeah. I feel like yours are more like dancing in the club.
Spice girls. Yeah. And mine are a little more toned down spice girls, like a little quieter, the balance, if you will. Whereas mine are like, yeah, we're going out. Which is funny. Cause I'd be in bed by 10. So. Let's be honest. There's not that, yeah, not that old AMA would be out at the club, this ambulance into never give up on the good times.
Okay. Well, I feel like that's all you need to know about us. Really feel like. Now, you know, our entire lives. There's nothing else that podcast over, which is just wrap it up season stuff. Well, I think this episode is done. It is. Yeah. Where can people find us on the interview? You can find us at high, low brow pod and that's on Instagram and Twitter.
Okay, well, thanks so much for listening. Please share your formative spice girls stories with us because truly for two weeks, we're just, we just want to talk about spice girls. We want to be entrenched in spice girls. So please share with us and we'll talk to you. Bye. Bye .
Episode 1 - The Episode About Homophobia in the Real Housewives World
Ama: Welcome to high, low brow. The podcast with high-brow takes about low-brow culture. I'm Amanda Scriver!
Danita: I'm Danita Steinberg. How was your week Danita? I feel like I'm just in this fugue state of existence. I've been listening to a lot of Aqua. And I'm yeah. Look, Aquarium is so good. It's I was really like in a rabbit hole of Aqua last night and that album slaps.
I have a very young neighbor across the way from me. And he is probably what is she listening to? He's probably like 20 years old. He's is this old crone music? I feel like he just D I, not that I've talked to him about it, but that's just the narrative I've given him. He probably doesn't care.
He's always gaming. But yeah that's where I am and I'm just trying to figure out how to never get my period.
Ama: Again. I love that and I support it in every single way. I hate my period am on like three medications. To make my pain not be what it is and it's the fucking worst. So thoughts and prayers?
Danita: That's the thing is I feel bad because I don't suffer that much during them, but I just, there's no reason to be getting them in the year of our Lord 20, 21. And unless you want kids and, or even like actively trying to conceive really which I am not, so we don't want it anymore.
We don't want it anymore. So that's my mission.
Ama: All I can hear in my head right now is that scene from the craft when they say take my scars, but instead it's take my period. Take my period. Take my period. Yeah.
Danita: Yeah. What about you? What's going on? I think a lot of
Ama: people know me for writing, but I actually work full time in social media, which is, this is fine.
That has been me all week. I've had to deal with anti-vaxxers and I just, Friday came and I was like I'm done like stick a fork at me. People on the internet are like, wow, I, I don't even have words that the amount of things that you will read, someone, equated getting a vaccine shot to having their abortion rates taken away.
And I was like, I don't even, I don't even know how those two things, but okay. Anyways, my week has been.
Danita: Like that, you've been in the trenches
Ama: Please be kind to your social media manager. That's it, ok? That's it.
Danita: I, too work in social media full time and I personally love it, I am not getting that kind of toxic stuff thrown at me, but what I do love is when someone is like X brand, fuck you. It makes me laugh my head off. Like I live for it. It's like a small act of resistance and I'm here for it.
Ama: Oh! My team and I - we definitely do keep a folder of those good comments, because they just make our heart sort of pitter-patter every day and we're like, yeah, do it.
Danita: They are what we want to say and cannot.
Ama: Yeah, so that's how my week is going. Not all terrible, but 95% terrible.
Danita: We are happy to be recording today. What are we talking about first?
Ama: I feel like we have to talk first and foremost about this Kathy Hilton situation on Real Housewives?
Danita: I think we have some controversial opinions that I think are going to be interesting to to talk about and listeners enjoy Kathy Hilton. All you want. I enjoy her too. She's good TV. She's wacky. She's quirky. She's drinking a red bull at one in the morning. But I feel like I personally was very nervous to hear her coming on as a friend of and more of a regular castmate.
How did you feel Ama when you heard the news about Kathy?
Ama: genuinely? I was like, huh. Interesting. For a few reasons. So one, I knew that Kathy, from how Kyle had set up her resistance to Kyle's projects, so American girl in documenting their life, growing up as through childhood, Kathy was super resistant to that.
So that was interesting. And it was like, oh, so like now she wants to be involved in the show. That's super interesting. And then watching the Paris Hilton documentary gave us a little more insight into Who Kathy was as a person. And there were an immediate red flags that went off for me into, and maybe Kathy doesn't didn't realize what her behavior and the things that she was doing signaled.
But for those of us who have experienced this type of behavior, toxic behavior in our lives before immediately, I was like, huh, I see you Kathy Hilton. And I'm not sure. That I trust. Yeah. What
about you?
Danita: I have watched the Richards sisters for more than a decade. I think ish. And at first I loved it for the drama.
The iconic the Kyle Kim house limo fight, iconic Housewives moment, who can forget that can forget you stole my goddamn house. That being said, the more that I hear about their mom, it sounds like to me that their mom was perhaps a narcissist and often number one destroyed all of their self-esteem.
I think there's something to say that all three of them were child actors, and that probably didn't help their self-esteem either. But I do think that their mom and mind you, I've never seen their mom. I've never heard her speak. Like she died. I'll watch it like before the show. So I'm just going by what I've, what, I've, what they've shared, what I've observed, the way that it seems like their mom pitted the sisters against each other and created this environment of competition.
I think, because to me, that's the only explanation for the Richard sisters, tumultuous relationship chips. And every family has their problems. Every family, he has their own dynamic, but the three of them just seem to be. Quite toxic. And I think Kyle now seeing Kathy I think people, a lot of people expected her to be the bossy older sister, but it's very clear that she is incapable of doing anything for herself.
And of course we know all of Kim's, substance abuse issues. And I think looking at the whole situation now, I think Kyle has had to really take care of everyone, her entire life. That being sad. Kyle's like the main character of Beverly Hills. She's like the O the only OJI remaining on the show.
So we've seen all of this from her perspective and her, her side of things. But I think she takes pride in her. This is Kyle. She takes pride in her ability to care for others and her empathy and that sort of thing. But to me, that's indicative of. A lot of trauma, it's a drama.
Exactly. And yeah. She would probably consider herself like an empath, which I use, I hate to say it, but I considered myself to be one. But now over the past couple of years, I've done some healing and I realized that, yes, that is a trauma response from having to constantly, take care of people and also constantly be aware of everyone else's moods to protect yourself.
Now,
would you say this might be a controversial, yet brave statement, but would you say that Kyle out of the three of them seems to be the one that has. The most broken the intergenerational trauma that has happened.
Yeah. That's a really interesting theory because I think that's true. I think she's a great mom and I, her kids seem to be pretty well adjusted.
They're, still rich privileged kids. So they, don't know how to do laundry and stuff, but they all seem to really love each other. They all seem to, it seems to be a really like strong family unit. Whereas I think when you look at Cathy and Paris and their relationship, it seems to be mirror mirroring cat, like little Kathy and big Kathy's relationship.
And, Kim and Kim's kids, they've been through a lot with their moms. So that's like a whole other conversation.
Ama: You don't really get any insight into the relationship that they have. And I wonder if that's out of. Kim's protection for her kids or Kim's kids. They just don't want to be involved.
They don't want that relationship being shared. Yeah.
Danita: And over the seasons, there's been times where Kath, Kathy and Kyla really close where Kathy and Kim are really close and Kim and Kyle are really close and they never, the three of them never seem to be on the same page. Like they, they seem to leverage their relationships with each other to get back at the third one that's currently being excluded.
So I think that kind of goes back to their mom kind of setting up this weird competition between the three of them. But back to Kathy in particular, I, I remember that scene. I think when one of Kim's daughters was getting a dress for prom and Kathy showed up and she was very critical and everyone was like, oh, Gabby just says it.
Like it is. I'm like, they all seem to just. Have their own issues. Yeah. I was just going to say,
Ama: yeah, like that's not the way it should be. Like, there's a way to tell it, like it is, but not be an asshole.
Danita: I feel like everyone watching the show has like a short memory or maybe they're just like, maybe we're projecting.
I don't know. But, and look, as I said at the beginning, she is very good television. No doubt. Oh
Ama: yeah. I shared with you that sort of wasn't an ID live that they did the other day where Kathy was just literally like talking nonsense and it's don't get me wrong. I watched that. And it was fucking hilarious, but I also don't love this narrative that they're pushing and it seems almost like a PR play to be like, oh, look at Kathy.
She's just so funny and relatable. And it's is she relatable? Is
Danita: she funny? Here's the thing. And I was watching, I've been rewatching Vanderpump rules and I've been really looking at jacks and
Ama: oh, that we could spend an entire episode
Danita: on it. Clearly a narcissist possibly as borderline personality disorder.
Like all of the signs are there. Obviously they're not going to bring that up on the show, but they just talk about his behavior as something he can change if he wanted to versus being like, no, you need like years of therapy to unpack what's going on with you. But my larger point is the more that I personally learn about personality disorders, the less enjoyable reality television is because they all have personality disorders.
Yeah. Do you have any final thoughts on KP Hilton while we're here?
Ama: I think to, to all of our lovely fans and listeners, if you want to, if you want to like Cathy, do
Danita: you, but want to just take it for face value and be like, this is just like a fun show. And at the end of the day she has good TV.
So enjoy that. I think we're just, I feel nervous. That's all I can say. I feel nervous. Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing we wanted to touch on quite quickly, I think it'll be less of a discussion. There was a New York times article that was really taking the internet by storm this week and truly not in a good way.
The article was how to rearrange your post pandemic friend scape. By Kate Murphy, who has a couple other questionable articles on friendship and the New York time. So you can look those up. What were your thoughts when you when you saw this article while it should let me read the part that was really making people feel understandably.
So she writes indeed depressed friends, make it more likely you'll be depressed, obese friends, make it more likely you'll become obese and friends who smoke or drink a lot, make it more likely you'll do the same. The reverse is also true. You will be more studious kind and enterprising. If you consort with studious kind and enterprising people, that is not to say that you should abandoned friends when they're having a hard time, but it's a good idea to be mindful of who you're spending the majority of your time with whether on or offline, because your friends, prevailing moods, values and behaviors are likely to become your own.
Ama: I have thoughts. I read it and then I was like, immediately tweeted the hi I'm fat. And if you want to eat me from your post pandemic friend scape, I'm totally chill with that. Basically. If you think that I'm a problem that needs to be like a raced from your post pandemic friendship group, maybe we shouldn't have been friends in the first place.
If you can't make space for me when I'm fat or depressed, or like any of the things like I have complex PTSD, I have depression. I have add, I have probably a whole host of other shit that I don't even know about. If you think that's gonna rub off on you or like also make you the things or you can't hold space for that.
Yeah, get the fuck out of my life. Like I don't need that
Danita: post pandemic friend scaping. I am going to get rid of any of my friends that are not fat and or depressed, like it's the opposite for me. And I think the, one of the main issues with this article is this piece is that she's making the claim that you can't be fat and or depressed, and also a good person.
You can't be kind, you can't be studious. But and that's like that's not true. And she does say, there's this isn't to say that you should, dump your friends when they're having a bad time. So she's okay with like situational depression, but anything chronic she's like peace out.
See you later, receive never actually is what she's saying. And as someone who's often depressed, that sucks,
Ama: yeah, there's some of my friends who I like have literally, we've only sent texts to each other, like a few times or this entire, like however long the pandemic has been going on because literally that's all they have the capacity for.
Yeah. And I like love them implicitly and I don't give a shit if that's all they can do. Because at the end of the day, I still love them as my friend and I don't care about anything else. I care that they're safe and they're taking care of themselves. And if I can meet them where they're at, that's all that fucking matters.
That's what a friendship should
Danita: be. This article is coming from a very neuro-typical place and a very hetero place to, yup. For me, my friends are my family. My friends are my community and I wouldn't dream of dropping any of them. So to, to read that, I really felt sad for this writer and the way that she thinks about people and her friends.
And she talks about how hard it is to keep friends. And I know everyone's really busy, but I don't know. She frames friendship as like this burden almost, I don't know. Let's talk to your friends that you dumped. I want to hear about how they feel about you.
Ama: Yes. I would love that. Let's go chat with them. I want one of them to write a New York times article that there was a really great Twitter thread by captain awkward. I am not going to read it, but I will include it in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. So that other people can read it because it really breaks down a lot of what the issues were with this piece.
And also like why, like it critiqued it in such a really great way where it says basically that, people are allowed to you're allowed to get rid of toxic friends, but they shouldn't be for X, Y, and Z reasons. And there's nuance in this, but this ain't it.
Emily: Yeah.
Ama: I guess the final thing, and then we'll kick it off to our actual episode.
Yay. Did you, I know I sent this to you, but like Jen Shaw, trying to go fund me $2.5 million for her legal fees. Like bitch, come on. Are you kidding me? I can't. Yeah,
Danita: That's not it. That's not it. But she's so diluted. So delusional. I was never on the gen job boat go away, disappear. I'm just not leading it.
Ama: If I could bring that men in black, like mind a race thing,
Danita: I would. And on that note, what can people expect coming up in just a few seconds? Who are we talking to?
Ama: Okay. Gosh we're going to talk to the team from the team. Jesus. That sounds so corporate. Holy
Danita: shit.
Let me just ping you. I'm just
Ama: going to ping you on teams. Hang on one second. Okay. So we decided for first episode, we were going to bring in comedians, Emily Richardson and Marshall Lorenzo from trash box. They have a podcast that's dedicated entirely to the real Housewives, and we're actually talking all about homophobia and the real Housewives world.
We've got in the house with us today. Emily Richardson and Marshall Lorenzo from trash box, a real Housewives podcast. Thank you so much for
Marshall: being you.
Ama: And we've got an immediate episode to talk about today. We're going to be talking about homophobia and the real Housewives universe, and let's be real like. There's a lot of it that goes on. So where do we even begin?
Marshall: We start at the beginning, which is the marriage equality March in Roni, Sonya versus Alex McCord.
Yeah. Cares.
Emily: I care. I care because your main goal, that's what you care
Ama: about. Marriage equality,
Danita: Alex, this is only
Emily: like the TV that was left on. No. You have the lobster
it's about them. Not you. Exactly.
Ama: Yeah. That was definitely a moment.
Marshall: A YouTube clip came up recently and it ends basically with Ramona being like, cause Ramona doesn't go because she just doesn't believe in that. Yeah. She's straight up is yeah. If gay people want to do that's their business.
But I don't think they should get married. Wow. Yeah. Oh, I bet. No shock.
Ama: Yeah. That's typical Ramona. Let's be honest. And I don't know if any of you, like either of you have seen, there was an article released in 2017 by a trans journalist. Her name was Serena denari. I apologize, Serena, if I have mispronounced your name, but Serena actually put this, it was for Mike and she put together this it was a sort of chart of when the homophobia started in the Housewives cinematic universe.
And Serena says that the first time was probably in 2009, when Tamra homo.
Marshall: That's so weird that she called him a homo too. I I regret what I said, but I stand by it.
Emily: Yeah.
Marshall: Slade. Yeah. It's, I don't watch a lot of OCD, so it's hard to tell with them. One can assume they all are Trump voters.
That kind of sounds like a very like 2009 era off the cuff thing to say, but given the deep dark void of horribleness, that is the OSI. It probably comes with a huge side of hate. Yeah.
Emily: Correct. OSI is rough.
Danita: I do watch a lot of OSI and it is so rife with homophobia. With Eddie, with Tamara's husband, there's like a whole plot line about everyone calling him gay and wondering if he's gay.
And then of course, Bronwyn and the latest season coming out as a lesbian and like the cast reactions to that Vicky really
Emily: horrible devil.
Marshall: Yeah. And then this is complete like segue, but like you get this kind of like vibe from Kelly as well. That at any moment she could say the F word at the drop of a hat, she's got the F word ready.
It's just a vibe. It's an OSI vibe, California vibes, which can, which Kelly.
Emily: Kelly. Yeah. Kelly Dodd as Kelly dot Ben
Marshall: Simone. Who's the other Kelly, Ben Simone, who has said the effort many times. It has no idea what it means.
Ama: I got to meet Kelly Dodd one time. And let me tell you,
Emily: please tell us what she liked.
Jealous.
Ama: Yeah. Okay. Actually, it was at a drag brunch, which is even more like
Marshall: my spidey senses tingling
Ama: and Priyanka was actually performing and. Priyanka gave Rick a laptop. Okay. Fox news, if you can believe, if you can even believe. Like that's pretty, so like
Emily: for her,
Ama: but yes Kelly is exactly how you would imagine Kelly would be in, in real life.
That's exactly
Marshall: how she was. That's upsetting and gross,
Emily: It's funny it's so funny because obviously there's such a huge queer fan base for these shows and it's like the Sonja Morgan types, like grey gardens, hot mess. I can understand why a lot of them are like, quote unquote or think they're gay icons or whatever.
But so many
Marshall: of them, Sonya is a guy icon. Yeah.
Emily: Is that official Marshall?
Marshall: Yep. I'm sorry. I just fact, yeah,
Emily: I just, so many of them are so problematic and if you really got down to it, it's their opinions about gay rights, trans rights, it would be, they would be incorrect.
Ama: I feel so.
Actually, when I was doing my research for this episode, I came across this like big thing in 2019, where I guess it was Sonia and Dorinda. They went to New York fashion week and they actually made some transphobic comments against, I don't know if it was against, it was overheard while they were at a show, but it was towards one of the models in a Guero sparrows show.
Sonya is a gay icon. I am with you right there, Marshall. But do we give space and time for people to grow and understand these things? Or do we just straight up cancel them?
Marshall: That's a pretty easy answer. Yes, we do give space to Sonja Morgan. No, we do not give space to Ramon a singer.
This is actually something that should be amplified and use as an example in wider cancel culture. Here is an example of someone who potentially could go in loan. Here's someone who needs to go to hell immediately. First, first class, like all the way downtown.
Emily: It's so complicated.
Ama: Yeah. And I, yeah. Yeah.
And I think that's like a good example. Yo, it told, I think,
Marshall: Also OSI as an example too, like I don't see any growth potentially happening now. I really don't like I see them all acknowledging maybe, transphobia, racism, whatever, but not actively doing anything about it.
If that makes sense.
Emily: They're there. This is my opinion, obviously. That's my opinion. Every that's my opinion. And I feel like their way of looking at cancel culture, their way of looking at things they've said that our offensive is more like a lot of celebrities, which is I'm covering my ass.
Oh, I need to grow AKA. I don't, I shouldn't say these things anymore because I'm going to get in trouble or kicked off the show, or Andy's going to get mad at me. That's more kind of how I see them dealing with that.
Marshall: Unless of course, you're Kelly Dodd and you don't really connect the dots and your firing is imminent.
And yet you still stay on message. Yeah.
Danita: I think with the OSI, it's very it's a very sheltered place. Like it's not a metropolitan place. And I think we're so used to the other, like Los Angeles and New York city and these much more like city ish places. And the OSI is just like a trashy suburb. Like it's not nice, so I think these, I think I was saying before we started recording that they are definitely the least rich of the Housewives which doesn't automatically make you homophobic.
But I do think they're just a little less educated, a little bit last, less worldly, and actually I popped in here because I wanted to quote an article from Buzzfeed news from. Shannon Keating called the real Housewives has a lesbian problem, which is such a great article. And it's mostly about Bronwyn from the OSI, but she starts it by saying being a real Housewives fan means striking a tricky balance in order to indulge in the franchises, many pleasures ranking husbands from horrible to full-blown nightmares, drinking up every ridiculous fight and increasingly unhinged accusation.
You must also steel yourself against everything. It's
Emily: really true. Cause it's really misogynist to the way they paint these women. Andy's
Marshall: problematic too. Oh, no, it's not Andy. That's asking the questions. It's Denise from Des Moines.
Danita: Yeah. There's I think it's less how they portray the women or more how they market the women. I think. Yes. If you don't watch real Housewives, you think it is all about the cattiness, but there's actually so much more nuance and depth to most
Ama: food. Just going back to like the Bronwyn coming out story and how that was handled.
There's so much more happening there than just like her coming out. When you look at the relationship that's happening between her and her mom, there's a lot of trauma going on there and perhaps
Danita: yes,
Ama: Is Bronwyn a lesbian? I don't know. Is it for me to question. Probably not. I hope that she finds whatever it is that jives for her.
And I wish her well, but it sucks to have to go out on TV and then live all of that in front of everybody.
Marshall: The costing and producing of the show comes into question a little bit, because if you see the second that the camera was pointed at Bronwyn, all you're seeing is someone like visibly shaking visibly, like at a 10, like visibly unwell.
Yeah. And they say, great, perfect housewife off you go knowing full well, what the full arc of the story is going to be. They know full well that this is only going to end badly. And as I show, they argued with most Housewives is maybe there's like a triumphant arch. And maybe she comes through at the other end and which often they do, but this one was particularly traumatic to watch.
Ama: Yeah. I, in a lot of ways, I related to Bronwyn's story. But not entirely I don't think I'm going to end up on a reality television show and be like, this is my coming out story. I related to a lot of the things that she was going through and I wanted to just give her a hug.
Danita: I think there's probably a lot of narcissism and real Housewives and they all need a lot of healing. But I also think with ours, we live in a society and there's so much like compulsory heterosexuality. And so I don't think it's unheard of for women, especially to come out later in life or realize that they're bisexual or lesbian or somewhere on the queer spectrum.
And so I think that is very interesting to show, like I think about, Sonia maybe. Coming into that a little bit more. And I think about Barbara also on real Housewives of New York. And he was like, everyone knows she's a lesbian, like everyone knows she's a lesbian.
Marshall: Are you saying that like as a viewer, yeah, everyone knows Barbara is a lesbian, or are you saying that as in you've been on Reddit, you've you've read receipts.
Danita: I think everyone in the show knows it. Like I really do. And they're all, they all just tippy toe around it. And then Ramona makes weird comments about Barbara having a crush on her or whatever it is. And it's are we not past? I don't think
Emily: so. I don't want to make this an ageist opinion, but when they were in their twenties, let's say someone like Ramona or a Vicky who are boomers, I'm going to guess it wasn't as chill to make out with a girl at a party at, a sorority.
So this could be coming out later. Again, I am in no way a psychologist. But yeah, I feel there's definitely an age thing because a lot of the things that real house I've say, I wouldn't put it past, like my aunts or my mom's friends. I like to think my mom's better than that, but it's a lot of just culturally insensitive stuff that they just don't quite get.
Ama: I don't know.
Marshall: Yeah. They don't, I'll speak for my parents when I I think they've learned having two gay kids like that. Okay. So they don't fully understand it all, so they're just shut up, so they just, that's the way that they deal with it. It's just we just won't say our opinion out loud.
I can't, it's the thing. I forget every single time. And I'll be watching a reunion and I'm like, Wow. How would I do in this room? Or like MPV, if you're at a party I'm like, would I feel comfortable in this room talking to all of them? And if I really think about it, the answer is no to a lot of the franchises.
It's a little scary
Ama: you. It is. It's interesting that you bring up this point because Ms. Lawrence actually has gone on the record saying that the entire reason that they left the real Housewives franchise was because they were unconsciously homophobic and like actively stealing from queer culture.
So do you think that people are often, like two times they're too critical about this? Or do you really think that they're trying or actively trying to be homophobic
Marshall: when you say they, you mean just the Housewives in general? Yeah, I think it's that thing of the ignorance and they think it's fun and yeah.
I don't know. I do. I wonder a lot about Sonya, because she does have a lot of queer people around her most of the time. Okay. And not the worst people either. This has been, I think she's friends with like aquaria at some point. Yeah. And I was like, okay. I don't think someone like aquaria would let.
Microaggressions slide. So like Sonya seems like someone who might be a little bit better, cause she's donated to the lb. Gooky G2, Goggle, liberal. Good at her boy. It's not mine. So I'm hopeful there. But then again, maybe that's just my bias love for Sonia blinding me.
Emily: I think so. Just probably surrounded by a lot of, yes, people in sick offense as well.
Who, when she does do the old Housewives trope lineup, my gaze and accessorizing queer people, maybe she's not called on it all the time. Cause they just want to party at the townhouse.
Ama: I would love to go to a party at the townhouse just saying, Sonya, you can call me anytime I am
Marshall: available.
But like I couldn't spend it. I couldn't have a meal with Ramona. I couldn't have a meal. I feel like I could do it with Lou, with Leah, with her just to keep things on track. Yeah. In terms of the other franchises. Beverly Hills would be a little bit tough to I can see Kyle been being a lot of woo, come on, queen.
Yes. Diva.
Emily: In preparation for this podcast, I have a terrible memory. It's all the weed drink I drink. And I was cause I saw it probably Beverly Hills a few years ago. I think that was kinda my entry into the Housewives. So they can be 2015. So I forgotten a lot and I really need to rewatch.
And in season five, Kyle had a bring your gay mixer as a sort of let's hook up
Marshall: all the games. I totally forgotten about this. And
Emily: she says, I wrote down, gays are like girlfriends without the drama and sometimes more drama. And she continually my gaze and Renna keeps saying that my gaze and Andy, watch what happens live teachable moment, which featured Lance bass and Luanne was like, listen, we're not your accessories.
And he really, he took them to task and not in front of Kyle because he loves Kyle. But it was like, they can't keep doing this it's so it, unfortunately it is very like 2006, almost like when I was a teenager. And I don't know. I feel like people were saying that a lot and I feel like we got over that thankfully, but some people haven't
Marshall: obviously.
Yeah, wait, sorry. Was he saying this to, to Lou or was he saying to the
Emily: Camera? And then Lou was Lou and Lance bass were there.
Marshall: Lou was going absolutely.
Emily: Yeah, absolutely.
Marshall: I have never try and find the footage. Yeah, God, I love that
Ama: lie on the Countess would do.
Marshall: She wouldn't be the audio wouldn't be caught, but yeah, I love that. It's such a, like a love hate with it because it's, that's the guilty pleasure as I'm like, I know that this behavior is not allowed, but at the same time, if she called me on my phone and was like, Hey, gaze, I'd be like, I'll be home for it.
A second.
Ama: If someone sent you a cameo from like Ramona. Using the F word, you just be like
Emily: upload to TMZ immediately. Where's my money.
Marshall: Oh yeah. Immediately within seconds. Marshall,
Emily: would you say that Sonya is the gay icon of all the franchises? The whole
Marshall: franchise? Who else could it be?
Like? Actually it's a pretty good separator on like hinge or Tinder or whatever, if it's like, if there are Rinna Stan, for example, then I know swipe the fuck out of here. So yeah, I would say so. Yeah, not Renna, never
Emily: run it. Erica Kane wants it. Queens
Marshall: Erica had it for a hot second. She really did.
She had it for a hot second. And then it was like, sorry, can't deal with Mikey. Can't deal with like your husband scamming plane, crash breakdowns. And also go to some anger management or like trauma, like clauses or something. Like just figure it out. Stop, like blocking yourself off emotionally from the world.
That's what the K is really want.
Yeah. Don't we all,
Danita: yeah. I, we just
Ama: love, we love a tender vulnerable moment. I don't know if either of you have seen, I'm sure you have. But this discussion about if Eric is going to be able to keep her quiet squad.
Emily: Yeah. That is very entertaining
Marshall: to me. I know, Mikey really put all his eggs in one basket.
Didn't they he's going to have to rethink some things.
Ama: Yeah. It's all over. It's over for this one.
Danita: I feel like could potentially like
Marshall: Jerry has, yeah. She's risen from the ashes. It's so awful to see.
Ama: Yeah, that was not what I was expecting. And I, yeah.
Marshall: Do you know why?
I think it's working is because she's making decisions that like, don't that are unintentionally camp, like truly unintentionally camp, like Booka w what is it? Book a de Beppo Bebo to Booka like
pepper and Mayo. Yeah. She literally she had to redo a hideous restaurant in the middle of no entrance, even more hideous dining room.
Danita: The whole, I think you've touched on something interesting is that the whole, you never is camp, it's just the definition of camp also. It's quite a lot, especially with New York city. It's a lot.
Marshall: Yeah.
Danita: Hagsploitation is, queer, Canon. So I think real Housewives really fits into that that John rhe weirdly
Marshall: enough, which is so funny because I. I never thought that it would be going as long as it is. Like I never really got into, I was when it first came out. Cause I just thought, oh, this isn't going to be around for that long kind of thing.
And then I started watching it when I felt like maybe it was winding down, but then it ramped back up. And so now I'm like, yeah, now I fully think it fits into the Canon now both historically. And currently it's crazy. I will say though, I would just, this is completely unrelated, but I was again thinking about gay characters in this universe.
I think I said this to Emily a couple of weeks ago. How is it that it is the same sort of gay guy on at gay men because lesbians do not exist in this universe. That it was always the same type of like caricature of a gay guy, like in almost every franchise. So yes, I was shocked and hungry and thirsty.
When I saw Karen's assistant on Potomac, I was like, wow. A different kind of gay on this show. Amazing. What was his name? It's like Michael or like David, like
Ama: Michael it's Michael he's like just a generic white guy. Yeah.
Marshall: Generic white guy in an ill-fitting suit. Yeah. I love him. I love him. And
Ama: Yeah, like he's great, but yeah, he's taken care of
Marshall: not a lot of variety, not a lot of variety.
I was
Emily: thinking about the gay friends on these shows and I thought about Jill Zarins gay husband. She called him.
Ama: Remember that guy.
Emily: What happened
Marshall: God. Cause when he popped up in Morocco, I was like, this is impossible. Not in Morocco
who goes to Morocco and then it's just oh my God, Brad. Hi. He must've known
Emily: core skill was sneaky with that kind of thing. Yeah.
Ama: Yeah. That's a Jill
Marshall: move. Oh, Jill. Now looking at pictures of, I work with this snake on her head.
Danita: Do we have any, before we move to games, do we have any final thoughts or final questions or
Marshall: I want to see maybe a gay kid. We have breasts. Oh, sorry.
Danita: And him, the first episode, I was like, wow, this is great. I'm very neutral on salt lake city. I know that's controversial, but it's just,
Marshall: No, it's just how
Danita: I feel wives started. And they all have real relationships with each other and it wasn't as produced. And I just feel like salt lake city, they all know the game.
They all know what they're doing. And and I think with Brooks, like he became this extra housewife on the show. It was a lot, it was a lot.
Ama: What about Bronwyn's side?
Danita: His daughter. Cynthia's daughter. Yup. She's queer. Yeah,
Marshall: Yeah. Yeah. More of that, just more, more, more gay kids or like a queer character.
That's not an assistant like that. Disney to the punch and have a fully fleshed out like gay character on screen please.
Ama: Yeah. I feel like Cynthia and her daughter, that relationship has been the most I don't want to say accurately portrayed, but it's been the most
Marshall: yeah.
Ama: Yeah, totally.
Whereas like they've tried to make a production out of like Bronwyn son doing dregs and exploring their gender. And they're like, oh, but they're using different pronouns. That's weird. And maybe it's because of the city that they live in, but yeah. Let's make space for a fully fleshed out gay character.
Or, child of where it's not controversial yet brave to be that
Marshall: person. Yeah. What about these husbands? I think it
Emily: would be really cool for a character to come on. And when I say character, I mean like a housewife, whether that like a lesbian house-wide to come on and have figured their shit out and know that they're queer and not have it be like a Bronwyn, like where you're like, oh God Bronwyn what's going on here?
Please tell me this is pure, because I,
Danita: Yeah. For a show that's so beloved by queer people, it is a very hetero show and the term housewife is very hetero. And I don't know that it's evolved. Yeah, past that per se. And I also think if they were to introduce a lesbian to the show, I think it would be, it would go similar to, Tiffany and in Dallas and
in Beverly Hills last year where it's like this token minority, and then they have to explain and justify and be the voice of reason. And, so I don't know how fair that would be, but I do. I do welcome it. I think we need that for sure. On that note, let's play a little game called, who said that?
Ama: And I,
Danita: earlier today I've prepared five clips of Housewives speaking, but their voices are distorted and they aren't really popular quotes. Like I just pulled them. So I'm very interested to see how you guys do. And if you need a hint, I will give you the city, but, or if you want me to play them again, let me know.
But here is the first one and I'm, I think you'll be able to hear it, that necklace right and sweet gloss with distilled water. Cause I was cleansing it. I want to make sure that whatever her Deon
Marshall: isn't on it. Unless you can change accents, I'd have to say Vanderpump.
Danita: Nope. Good guess, but no, it is right city.
Emily: Really? Her glasses, her necklace went right into that distilled water. Did I hear that correctly?
Marshall: That's just a weird accident. And the only other way to accent is to read
Danita: she's cleansing the bad energy from the necklace.
Emily: Oh fucking Carlton.
Danita: Yeah, Carlton. You got it.
Marshall: The only other British person
Danita: Carlson one season housewife, Carlton who I think is under song. I agree.
Emily: Speaking,
Danita: I mean she she actually was openly bisexual.
Marshall: Certainly she got a bad edit apparently. Yeah. Rumor was that they, they did a dirty,
Emily: She did get to be in the lady Gaga
Danita: video. So I think she was The most openly bisexual housewife we've ever had.
So shout out to Carlton. If you're listening, we love, okay. Here is the second clip. I feel like she's trying to make it very clear that she's the actress of the group. And the truth of the matter
Emily: Is that none of us are in demand. Actor says, so stop killing
Danita: your high horse. And like you're so much better than all of
Marshall: us.
I've heard this exact clip recently. It's so easy to just to say Rena, but I don't think it works. Nope.
Danita: Ism city,
Emily: same state. We'll see,
See, I knew I'd suck at this game, but I really don't know.
Marshall: Yeah. Okay. So actresses in the OSI Heather Dube, wasn't an actress. Was she?
Yeah, she was, yeah, she was. It was it
Ama: Heather? Yeah, she was
Danita: on Heather Dobro. So it was about Heather. Oh,
Marshall: Oh my God
Emily: would be, in Heather's day, Shannon hates Heather Shannon, but
Danita: don't give you a clue Slade smiley,
Marshall: right? What's her name?
Danita: No,
In the clip, she's trying to like her and how they're having a dispute over an audition and they're and it was also like, because Gretchen and Alexis were also arguing around the same time about that, like newscaster position.
Ama: I think I watched
Emily: that season just over one weekend.
Blasted out of my mind on edibles. I don't remember anything.
Marshall: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah. A lot of OCwas background for me.
Danita: Okay. Next clip. Clip number three. Plus your car from the same cloth.
Marshall: Oh, that
Emily: feels
Marshall: like
Emily: multi-million that's
wrong city. Okay. Multi cut from the same
Marshall: cloth. Yeah, but who's no, you're shaking your head.
Emily: Who would we
Ama: be married to the love shade on that.
Marshall: That's pretty shady. I'm trying
Emily: to think of, is that shady? Karen it's carrot, right? Yeah. I mean she
thinking of queer, that's a whole other thing you could get into a thesis on Michael
Ama: Darby, we could do a whole damn episode about Mike
Marshall: and his sausage diabolical Dhabi. I'm just shocked that he's allowed cameras to capture him.
Ama: That dinner exchange between her and Michael with the texts. And she's talk to me about it.
And I was just like, yes, give it to me, injected into my bay.
Emily: They should all be like that. That's why Beverly Hills can just be so frustrating because there's none of that reality.
Ama: Okay.
Danita: Are we ready for the fourth clip?
Emily: is what a threat by bisexual?
Ama: No, like B
Danita: Y E O people.
Emily: It does sound like by Kyle.
Marshall: No. It's giving me like, not Porsche stocks, Alicia, I don't know.
Danita: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard out of context. It's hard. It's in Russ. It's in response to a Facebook post
Marshall: or they never talk about social media.
Danita: This was an early season of this city. Oh boy. I suck at this.
It's one of the, one of the biggest Housewives villains is saying this, I would say,
Marshall: Ooh. Oh, okay. I'm going to say, oh, see, because they brought up Christianity is that I would say no Josie. Yeah, New York. No Josie, Emily, sorry. Kyle Josie. If it's fence, I don't know if some of the oldest seasons, no Jersey.
Ama: Oh, I stupid.
you sure you didn't have a weed before you came on here? I started God. I was
Emily: like no more for me.
Danita: The biggest New Jersey villain.
Emily: Yes.
Danita: Danielle sob in response to a Facebook group. That was like auntie Danielle Staub made by Jack Jacqueline's daughter,
Marshall: Ashley.
Emily: She was chaotic. And that's funny. I remember watching season one of real Housewives of New Jersey and making my boyfriend watch it. And it's not for him. It's for me. And he's not that into it. And I'm like,
Ama: look, they're paying me. There's
Danita: so much like controversy and definitely Caroline and Albert are involved in the mob and yeah, there's just, the family drama is so good.
Like the S like the godfather could never, honestly it's just
Emily: so good. Okay. We ready for the
Danita: last clip? I think after our conversation, I have utmost confidence. Let's hear it.
A hillbilly can make people feel welcome. She was saying we didn't make them feel welcome. Welcome to my trailer.
Hello. I can have a good
Emily: time. Sonja Morgan and Ramona talking about Viva and the turf.
Danita: I knew you guys were going to get that one.
Marshall: You can tell by the cadence of the like
Emily: fascinating.
Danita: I think for Ramonaand Sonia are just at the top of their game in those, in that season. And that episode there, their dynamic is so funny, they just Tweedledee and they just go around screeching and it's yeah yeah.
Thank you so much for being on our first. First episode. This was amazing. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Where can people find you on
Marshall: the internet? Oh God, we have different handles. Don't wait, trash box sex.
Now Instagram though is like the place that we post things first, like in terms of like when an episode is up or anything like that. So that's trash box Housewives. Correct.
Emily: And our P our Twitter is you could be our 40th follower. It's at the trash box pod. And we put out episodes of we recap every week's all of the episodes, except for OSI.
It's dead to me every week around late Friday night, early Saturday morning. And you can check us out on apple podcasts or wherever you listen to
Ama: podcasts. We have a lot of fun. Amazing. Thank you so much for. Being part of this, it
Danita: was amazing as for us, you can find us on the internet at high, low brow pod everywhere.